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Subject: Andrew Price's UI proposal


wolf359 ( ) posted Mon, 27 July 2015 at 9:54 AM · edited Wed, 20 March 2024 at 7:54 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains profanity

Hi sorry if this has been discussed Already

(mode please delete this thread if so)

But what are your thoughts on Andrew prices proposed Blender UI redesign.

ANDREW'S PROPOSAL



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Lobo3433 ( ) posted Mon, 27 July 2015 at 12:23 PM
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I remember when that proposal first came out and at the time he made some valid points and I feel that some things he has mentioned have come to pass perhaps not exactly as Andrew wanted but the UI has gone under much reworking and  currently I like the new UI I still consider myself a novice but I feel I have learned enough that the UI fits my workflow. Others coming from more more complex software package with very different UI's like Maya, 3Ds Max, Cinema 4D or Rhino might think differently and I am sure they will have opinions on this subject and will share them. Look forward to seeing some other responses to this thread

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kljpmsd ( ) posted Mon, 27 July 2015 at 4:31 PM · edited Tue, 28 July 2015 at 4:30 PM

This is the most brilliant thing I've ever see...software wise anyway.  As much as I love Blender, as a long time user of many Adobe products I realize how ass-crap awful Blender's interface is, even after the 2.5 enema.



Nereus541 ( ) posted Mon, 27 July 2015 at 4:34 PM

The main advantage with Andrew's proposal is reduction of clutter.  There are so many buttons and sliders on the current 2.75 UI that I'm left feeling somewhat lost and afraid to touch anything.  As a result, my productivity suffers.


RobynsVeil ( ) posted Mon, 27 July 2015 at 5:08 PM

No question that much if not most of Andrew's suggestions were solid and would have improved Blender for newcomers to the software, particularly those coming from other 3D software. There is an old Blender-user guard to consider who are used to seeing their tools in certain places, however, and apparently they still hold significant clout - especially when some of them are in the development team themselves.

The best thing that did come out of this was that Blender developers could no longer ignore the issue after Andrew started the conversation.

I feel about Max as most Max users feel about Blender: the UI is awkward to use for / to me. Not to them, certainly, but it is, to me. And then, that's just me. If I were going to pay that sort of money for software, I would expect it easier to use than it is. Again, that's just me. LOL

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Lobo3433 ( ) posted Tue, 28 July 2015 at 2:24 AM
Forum Moderator

I have to agree with with Robyn on her point that the best thing that did come out with Andrew's suggestions was that " that Blender developers could no longer ignore the issue after Andrew started the conversation." And some of us old guard well since the introduction of 2.5 that is do like knowing were things are and have grown accustom to the tools being where they are. I feel that perhaps the one focus newcomers skip over learning is the keyboard shortcuts once they have become second nature the UI does not slow down your workflow at least that is my feeling on the subject. is there room for improvement of course but there needs to also be a balance to appease both new comers and old hats alike. 

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adh3d ( ) posted Wed, 29 July 2015 at 12:39 AM

Blender needs something  like this right now.

An interface must be Simple and effective, and blender now is anything but that.



adh3d website


maxxxmodelz ( ) posted Thu, 30 July 2015 at 4:18 AM · edited Thu, 30 July 2015 at 4:20 AM

When I first saw Andrew's proposals, I was in total agreement.  I'm STILL in total agreement.  I will say that I do think Blender is extremely powerful, and can do almost anything the commercial counterparts can do, but it's without a doubt the most difficult software I've ever attempted to learn.

Once upon a time, I learned the very basics of polygon modelling in apps like Ray Dream and Corel Dream3d (these are long gone now). Later, I moved on to 3dsmax, and it only took me a few weeks to learn the modelling tools and modifiers there, and get back up to speed.  Later in life, I had to learn to use Maya for a job I applied for, and I was comfortable enough with it to learn the UI and tools needed in about a week.  The tools performed similarly to 3dsmax, and used the same naming conventions, so it was an easy switch.  I've also picked up other apps like Silo, and Hexagon, and once again, they only took a couple days to learn.  Then I began learning Blender, and months later, I still feel like a newbie.  I'm sorry guys, but this software is difficult to get used to, especially if you've ever used ANYTHING else for 3d modelling beforehand.  Please understand, I'm NOT knocking Blender here.  I'm just stating my opinion, and quite obviously I'm not alone.

All visual and graphical things aside, there's also serious inconsistencies in Blender's UI when trying to model things to scale.  Andrew touched on these in his proposal, and I think they are the most important issues.  You can set the scene units to mm or whatever measurement units, but not all of the numbers in every tool obey those units, and often display only arbitrary numbers.  Anyone coming from some of the large corporate apps will have a real hard time accepting this, and some may find it unusable because of it, like architectural or CAD guys.

I don't know.  I think the Foundation should recognize that there's a world of alienated users out there who would love to switch over to this app, if it were not so unorthodox.  Maybe catering to the "old guard" is what's keeping it from becoming a standard?  Just speculation, but I think that's what Andrew was also hinting at.

That all said, I think there has been lots of improvements made lately, especially if you use some of the addons like the pie menus and such.  They've really changed my workflow for the better, and saved me from having to recall so many hotkey combinations.


Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.


adh3d ( ) posted Thu, 30 July 2015 at 6:12 PM

I think blender is better than most of the high commercial 3d app, but when an artist, professional or not, has to  spend hours and hours of tutorials only to start making something in a 3d application, that tool has a problem. If you try to use C4d, max, maya, modo or any other without you have used them before, at least you can start working at a low level and begin to discover their functions, this is because all of them, with differences, works the same way, I don't say it is a better or worse way, but It is the extended model in an app.

I have to add, that it is not only that blender interface is bad for begginers, because blender has a lot of more functions  that when it was created, its interface has become an infinite set of small sliders, values and buttons, ordained without apparent logic,  impossible to work with.

I see the youtube video of the blender conference with Andrew, and the reactions of some people there, take me to have none hopes.



adh3d website


maxxxmodelz ( ) posted Thu, 30 July 2015 at 7:26 PM

I see the youtube video of the blender conference with Andrew, and the reactions of some people there, take me to have none hopes.

I think the problem Andrew faces at the conference was in the way he pitched his ideas.  I think the base, core users (the old guard, so to speak) felt he was bashing the software, and were instantly resistant to his proposal.  Believe it or not, Blender has some rabid followers, who will never admit there's anything inherantly "wrong" with the app.  Andrew basically came out and said, "Blender is broken".  Say that in the forums, for example, and no matter who you are, you're in for a rough thread.  So he did basically the same thing, but live, and in person.  I'm actually surprised no one started throwing tomatoes at him, and booing him off stage! Seriously though, Andrew's proposal was spot-on in all aspects.  It was extremely well constructed, and presented.  Except for the fact that he called Blender "broken", which insulted many people, he did a brilliant job.  I'm sure things will begin to slowly change, but it's no way gonna happen before 3.0 release.  I think by the time 3.0 is out (a few years from now), we will have the welcoming, industry standard Blender that Andrew spoke of.


Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.


adh3d ( ) posted Thu, 30 July 2015 at 10:43 PM

Yes, you are right.

The old guard have to ask for theirselves a question, if Blender is free and can make wonderfull things that only very expensive application can do, why there aren't more users using it. Blender must be the first application in the 3d world, at least in the individual, small company level and although it is widely used, it is not dominant. This is for sure because the
excessive and futile effort it takes to learn how to use it.

It is normal that people that have made that effort, don't want see how the blender interface change, but this is a small thinking .

The buzz is who said it, not so that it's something that has been said many times by many people



adh3d website


LuxXeon ( ) posted Thu, 30 July 2015 at 11:19 PM · edited Thu, 30 July 2015 at 11:20 PM
Forum Coordinator

Blender must be the first application in the 3d world, at least in the individual, small company level and although it is widely used, it is not dominant. This is for sure because the excessive and futile effort it takes to learn how to use it.

Unless you are 10 or 11 years old. ;-)

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2892347

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adh3d ( ) posted Fri, 31 July 2015 at 12:18 AM

Well, imagine then blender with a great interface what can we do, even if we have more that 11 years :)

Everybody knows that blender is great, the workflow in blender is not.



adh3d website


maxxxmodelz ( ) posted Fri, 31 July 2015 at 1:05 AM · edited Fri, 31 July 2015 at 1:06 AM

Well, imagine then blender with a great interface what can we do, even if we have more that 11 years :)

Everybody knows that blender is great, the workflow in blender is not.

Agreed. Lux, I'm sure you were just trying to be humorous there, but that video helps to drive home a great point. Blender is very powerful, and can achieve anything thrown at it in the CG world, but it takes a sophisticated education, and little to no previous experience with industry-standard tools to learn it efficiently.  I'm definitely excited to see Blender being taught in schools to youngsters (future FX artists), and seeing what they've done with it is beyond inspirational!  The fact is, those talented kids had most likely very little to no prior experience with anything related to the CG industry before, and were being educated in the software, under controlled circumstances, by someone who is most likely very knowledgeable, and experienced with the app to begin with.  Comparing that situation to learning it on your own, after you've been exposed to other tools of the trade, is very different.


Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.


heddheld ( ) posted Sat, 01 August 2015 at 1:31 PM

 maybe this will rock your boat

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?377651-Tune-Up!

not tried it (I'm happy with blender) but appears to allow lots of UI changes(improvements?) 


wolf359 ( ) posted Sat, 01 August 2015 at 4:17 PM

"Believe it or not, Blender has some rabid followers, who will never admit there's anything inherently "wrong" with the app."

I can believe it.

Regretably you have "software Evangelists"  in many software user communities.

Many of whom take some bizarre masochistic pride in how difficult their beloved app is as it keeps put the "casual rabble" who will fail to undertake the difficult "right of passage" required to unlock its holy secrets.

I am a long time Maxon C4D user how has 
been using blender ( off& on) since the 2.5 renovation.

Right now I only use it to import scenes from DAZ studio to render in cycles via a free scene conversion/export script.

I simply can NOT get used to the modeling or animation set up in blender and sincerely hope to see Andrews suggestions implemented soon.

 



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adh3d ( ) posted Sat, 01 August 2015 at 7:54 PM · edited Sat, 01 August 2015 at 7:58 PM

The problem is that some people have forgotten that blender or any other 3d application is only a tool to create art, and the easier it is to use that tool, more time we get to create the important thing, the art.

Who cares that blender or any other app can do 1000  fantastic things if you have to read 1000 tutorials to learn how to use it.

I think the first thing an application programmer have to have in mind is how easy and intuitive for the final user is their application, them start to add all the stuff.

An app interface is one of the most important things in an app and more in the actual world.



adh3d website


davidstoolie ( ) posted Sun, 02 August 2015 at 12:52 AM

I have to chime in if I may.  I'm one of those guys who really struggled with Blender a lot.  I downloaded my first copy of it many years ago, but it sat in my hard drive, because I couldn't even so much as move an object when I first tried it out. I blamed it all on the UI, and the software was collecting dust until version 2.6 I think.  I took another run at it about a year ago, and tried many tutorials, but could never complete them, because I had a hard time following along. 

I remember trying to follow one tutorial on how to create a bottle cap.  The guy was doing all this advanced stuff, like adding arrays, and using empties, and things like that.  No way did I understand that, and was very frustrated.  I was thinking if it's that hard to make such a simple model in Blender, then I'm doomed, and should give it up.  Now it's gonna sound like I'm brown nosing here, but I have to credit Luxxeon (thank you!) for helping me achieve my very first successful model in Blender.  After crying about my failures in the 3d modeling forum, he created this simple tutorial for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Q2rJ5roFA

And that ended up being the first model I made in Blender!  So I think sometimes it all depends on the teacher too!  I mean, I had no idea there was a better way to go about things out there, because some of the tutorials I was trying to follow were going about it the hard way themselves!  If luxxeon didn't show me different, I would have thought that the way the other guy was doing it was the only way.  So lesson to all new users... if a tutorial is too hard for you, just move on, or try to search out another one.  Chances are, there's an easier way to do it.


Lobo3433 ( ) posted Sun, 02 August 2015 at 5:02 PM
Forum Moderator

Thank you davidstoolie I think you hit the nail on the head. I had similar experience with Blender when i first came to it. Had seen and read many tutorials and could not complete one tutorial or another because the quality of the person who did the tutorial. I think my first completed model was based on one of Andrews tutorials for making tunnel it took me more than 2 weeks to complete it but once I did was pleased enough to upload the image for it here at Renderosity. I applaud LuxXeon effort and and very grateful that he has taken the time to contribute a series of tutorials that he has done in 3DsMax and then converted the workflow to Blender. I do not know how easy or difficult it is for him to do so. Maybe it is his experience that he just knows which tools perform the similar functions from one application to another. Point being yes the UI can use more improvements and be more user friendly but learning how to use the application should not be based on just the UI but what your willing to put into learning the software. I am no Blender expert nor Blender Evangelists I am fortunate if someone considers me an educated novice with enough knowledge that I can help out a user when they are in need. I enjoy a good and challenging discussion thread like this one has become so far but for those who might be following this thread who are still on the edge of considering to learn Blender do not let the wishes of many about the UI deter you from taking a chance to learn how to use Blender for it does have amazing capabilities. 

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adh3d ( ) posted Mon, 03 August 2015 at 12:02 AM

This is the problem, one thing is a tutorial to start modelling something, and another different thing is a tutorial to learn the interface to modelling something.

For example, My first 3d tool for modelling was Truespace, then I discover wings3d, I take less that 5 minutes to start using the basic tools for modelling something in wings3d, and if you compare truespace interface with wings3d, they are completely different.

I used silo a little, it has a different workflow than wings3d, but you can "imagine" how to start modelling in a little time.

Open Blender for first time, just to know how to move, scale ... you need a tutorial.

why?, because two words, intuitive and logical.

Blender is not for beginners, and the problem is that with blender way of work, no matter you have made things in another tool during years, when you open blender   first time, your level is beginner.

intuitive



adh3d website


Lobo3433 ( ) posted Mon, 03 August 2015 at 1:04 AM
Forum Moderator

When I first opened Blender 2.48 I think it was it was totally alien to me and never could figure it out. I learned basic modeling skills on Hexagon and really wanted to learn how to model for Poser and Hexagon seemed to way to go and was not a major investment for a hobbyist. I have heard that Wings3d was a decent modeler but it never clicked for me. When Blender was redesigned with 2.5 it made sense for me maybe just the way my brain ticks lol. I agree Blender has its own way of doing things and yes I believe there still many improvements that can and need to be made but from the perspective of a hobbyist it is free and if I need to spend a little extra time learning how it works to accomplish my goals well I do not consider that a burden. The fact that I had to learn keyboard short cuts and such to speed up my workflow has actually helped in other areas and other software where I hardly ever used their shortcut keys (yeah bad techy always used point and click shame on me:) now I do so Blender's UI might not be perfect but it is still a very worthy tool for any artist to invest the time and effort into learning. 

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Meshbox ( ) posted Tue, 04 August 2015 at 5:37 AM

I think if the UI were redesigned around Andrew's proposal then Blender would be taken much more seriously.

This isn't necessarily a newbies vs pros question of knowing what the functions are. Pros benefit from fewer steps needed to accomplish a task. For example, his suggestions about better layer identification - named layers means less mistakes in switching between layers.

I went all through this when Shade 3D changed from its ancient CAD like design to its Shade 12 UI. Fewer steps, and common functionality is accessible through the main UI.

One item I think he missed was in how to identify scene items (ie color of wireframes). There should be a UI Preference Dialog where you can set colors for any object, then you can save these into loadable profiles (along with saveable keyboard mappings, etc).

A lot of big companies like Adobe, MS and Autodesk implement these types of features, not because of some whim but because they've done a lot of usability studies. They are better.

Best regards,

chikako
Meshbox Design | 3D Models You Want





EClark1894 ( ) posted Wed, 05 August 2015 at 2:42 AM

I like Andrew's proposal but I think it could be pushed one step further with letting the user assign his own shortcuts, be they to keys or buttons. Then, the user could assign the operations to the keys or buttons  he tends to use the most. Even better, if you change modes, like  going from modeling to rigging or animation, you could reassign the keys and buttons, and Blender would remember them.




maxxxmodelz ( ) posted Wed, 05 August 2015 at 12:30 PM · edited Wed, 05 August 2015 at 12:31 PM

I like Andrew's proposal but I think it could be pushed one step further with letting the user assign his own shortcuts, be they to keys or buttons. Then, the user could assign the operations to the keys or buttons  he tends to use the most. Even better, if you change modes, like  going from modeling to rigging or animation, you could reassign the keys and buttons, and Blender would remember them.

It's already possible to assign your own shortcuts and hotkeys in Blender.  You can reassign hotkeys for existing shortcuts, and/or replace them with your own (be careful if you do this, that you don't over-wright something important.  Every action in Blender can be assigned to a hotkey or shortcut, even mode switching can be changed,  The problem is, you need to know all of the existing hotkey combinations, so when you assign something, you aren't replacing something important.  For an example, I have assigned vertex, edge, and face modes to their own hotkeys like I had them in 3dsmax, which makes modelling a lot faster than clicking the UI buttons, or choosing the different modes from a dropdown menu.  If you use the Pie Menu addon, you can customize what modes will appear in the menus there as well.  WHen you change hotkeys, or assign new ones, you just gotta remember to save the Preferences in that session, or the defaults will appear the next time you open the software.


Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.


EClark1894 ( ) posted Wed, 05 August 2015 at 3:07 PM

And where do I get this exhaustive list of hot keys and their assignments?




heddheld ( ) posted Wed, 05 August 2015 at 5:32 PM

 there all in preference's ..under input........... there is a few lists knocking about but I don't think I ever seen one that's complete (mainly all the common ones)

don't understand what you mean by "going from modeling to rigging"  all the import shortcuts are the same g,r,s and of course shift+A and E ok ok there is a few more you'd need but you can always hit space and search if you forget one

have fun and if it all gets messy just reset to defaults ;-) 


HMorton ( ) posted Thu, 06 August 2015 at 1:49 AM

I love Blender, but you can't get far with it if you don't know the keyboard shortcuts.  I'm among the group who have switched to using the pie menu system for now, because it just made getting around in the software easier, and I don't have to worry I will get lost if I press the wrong keyboard shortcut.  When I first started using Blender, I got "stuck" in the render window.  I couldn't figure out how to get back to the 3d view of my scene after doing my first test render.  Of course, it's just a simple hotkey, but I was trying to find it in the UI, and just got myself frustrated. I think it was actually luxxeon who I first saw using the pie menus, so I decided to use them too.  It switches some of the hotkeys on you, but overall, it's very easy now to get around from mode to mode, and all that stuff.  I won't recommend the pie menu if you already got comfortable with the hotkeys, but if you're struggling with them, they could help.

I think some of the things Andrew suggested are sorely needed, but there's a handful of Blender users who don't like him too.  Never knew that until I talked to a couple of them off the record.  They have curious reasons behind why they don't like him, but I won't get into that here.  I personally think he's done a lot to bring Blender into the light, and without him, we might only have a software that only certain few would like to use.


Lobo3433 ( ) posted Fri, 07 August 2015 at 4:40 PM
Forum Moderator

And where do I get this exhaustive list of hot keys and their assignments?

This a bit dated but the majority 90% of them are still valid if not mistaken there are some better ones that I will search and find add them to the forum as soon as I can but hopefully these will give you a starting point  file_f899139df5e1059396431415e770c6dd.jp

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EClark1894 ( ) posted Tue, 11 August 2015 at 8:21 PM

 Thanks Lobo!

Something that might be a good idea as it's a halfway measure is for someone to create a UI python script as an add-on  feature.  People who want to use something similar to what Andrew proposes can simply install the script, and for those purists out there, they can leave everything as is.




Morkonan ( ) posted Wed, 02 September 2015 at 12:32 AM

Blender's UI handicaps the usefulness of the program by preventing the user from not only easily accessing critical functions, but hampering their experimentation and artistic expression while using it, due to its unintuitive organization and lack of task-oriented workflow design.

In short: It's crap.

I'm an opinionated so-and-so, but let's face it - It's a UI designed by a committee with no evidence at all of any project management that actually takes into account the VALUE of the product, itself, and its potential appeal to a potential customer base. The dominant theme expressed in Blender's UI appears to be: "Blender is free, so there's no need to make it an appealing product."

That is a half-butted, colon-staring attitude...

Yes, Blender is a very powerful, very versatile, widely supported and very (too "very") dynamic product. But, the UI is pure garbage. I don't care too much about shortcut keys, since they're rife in such packages and you'll have those present in any package you go to. However, I do care that if I don't know the shortcut key, finding the actual GUI function is nearly impossible... An experienced 3D modeler should be able to pick up Blender, stare at the UI a bit, fiddle with a few things, and be able to do some basic modeling in fairly short order, not counting some higher functions, of course. But, stitching together a few faces, subdividing them, doing a few tweaks and creating a basic object, working with a UV of the object and then exporting that object, should not require the ritual sacrifice of the neighbor's cat - This whole process should be able to be done before one needs to take a nap.

Blenderites who strongly support the current UI (And, I use "UI" only loosely) are simply showing self-justification bias, in my opinion. ie: "I chose Blender, therefore it is good." Well, that's fine if one loses sleep over such personal things, like having one's choices criticized, but that does not advance the cause of "Blender" nor does it help to open up the product to new users. Blender isn't free because studio gronks needed a free 3D app. It's free because the desire is to bring "3D to the masses" and that simply will not happen if the UI stays in its present (ever changing, like a rat's nest in a windstorm), confusing, nigh unintelligible form.

I support any effort to create an intuitive, logically organized, task-oriented, and reasonably easy to use interface for Blender. I'm not asking for the Moon, just the ability to figure out how to model it in a reasonable amount of time in Blender.


kljpmsd ( ) posted Wed, 02 September 2015 at 4:21 AM

Morkonan,
I mostly agree with you and make constant suggestions in the Blender developer's forum. I hate the gui despite loving the program. Bitching about it here does no good, go to the Blender forums and make your thoughts known with helpful suggestions. It is changing, slowly, incrementally, painfully...but we'll, one day, have the brilliant program we dream of.



kyraia ( ) posted Thu, 03 September 2015 at 8:50 AM

Andrew's suggestions are great.
The current user interface may be good for the 1% hardcore Blender users. It makes things quite difficult for the - let's say - 19% occasional users like me, and it succesfully prevents the other 80% who would gladly like to use Blender but simply can't because the UI doesn't let them.
I have put quite a lot of effort into learning the UI but still I say: discard this disastrous thing as soon as possible and make a good one. PLEASE!


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