Katsuyaki posted at 8:45 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490135

Rottenham : "My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it."

Take a look at your account once you've logged back in. It looks like any DAZ+ members have been migrated over to DAZ Plus accounts, with its monthly billing. You don't want to get hit with any surprise charges on your credit card or bank account after the first of the month.

_____________________________________________________________

You're right, that's exactly what they've done. I can't believe it says "Subscription will end on 0000-12-31." And there's no drop-out button. Argh... How to wiggle out of this...

I opened a new DAZ account, and it defaulted to "free." I haven't tested it by buying anything yet. And, I deleted the payment data from my existing hijacked account, which ends on "year 0000." I have not found any way to delete that original account. What a PITA.

This reminds me of "elections" held in the old USSR. Yes, they had elections. But the form only had one checkbox on it. It said "YES."

LuckyStallion posted at 9:18 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490137

And overnight mine and several others' comments were wholesale deleted by a mod, claiming, "and this is why we do not allow speculation."  I guess the backlash is spooking someone in charge over yonder.  The mod deleted every comment mentioning Premier in a negative light, citing that "there are already multiple threads on the topic," yet interestingly decided to leave the few remarks that were positive/neutral.

Tiring.

That's DAZ's Standard Operating Procedure: kill it with fire while smiling politely. I've been permanently blocked from their forums for years, ever since the content encryption debacle -- I guess some of my observations were a little too fresh and spicy for their delicate palates. Not at all surprised to learn that they haven't learned a damn thing about customer interaction since then.  

Rottenham posted at 9:21 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490138

Katsuyaki posted at 8:45 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490135

Rottenham : "My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it."

Take a look at your account once you've logged back in. It looks like any DAZ+ members have been migrated over to DAZ Plus accounts, with its monthly billing. You don't want to get hit with any surprise charges on your credit card or bank account after the first of the month.

_____________________________________________________________

You're right, that's exactly what they've done. I can't believe it says "Subscription will end on 0000-12-31." And there's no drop-out button. Argh... How to wiggle out of this...

There USED to be a way to cancel your DAZ+ membership with the old UI, and the Help documentation still reflects that, but it's not available through the new store UI, at least at the moment. Submit a request and ask them to demote your account. I already have and I'm waiting for them to get back to me about it. The confirmation email I got after submitting my request said it may take them several days to get around to addressing my issue.

Katsuyaki posted at 9:31 AM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490155

There USED to be a way to cancel your DAZ+ membership with the old UI, and the Help documentation still reflects that, but it's not available through the new store UI, at least at the moment. Submit a request and ask them to demote your account. I already have and I'm waiting for them to get back to me about it. The confirmation email I got after submitting my request said it may take them several days to get around to addressing my issue.

---

Yes, I can email them, but they aren't looking very responsive these days. I did notice that the published UI doesn't match the published Help doc. At one time that would have been unlikely. Not these days.

There are three ways to increase Corporate profits:

1. Increase the number of units sold

2. Increase the price

3. Reduce the quality

Many today resort to the third option.

There should now be an option button under the base membership section of your membership management screen from where you can cancel your sub, was not there before but is working now as have cancelled my sub. The funny thing Daz just gave thirteen freebies to Daz+ and Premier users, my guess is to placate folks

I think the interesting thing in all of this is how many folks after the initial shock of it all, quite a few have signed on to the Premier sub.

ghosty12 posted at 10:03 AM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490157

There should now be an option button under the base membership section of your membership management screen from where you can cancel your sub, was not there before but is working now as have cancelled my sub. The funny thing Daz just gave thirteen freebies to Daz+ and Premier users, my guess is to placate folks

I think the interesting thing in all of this is how many folks after the initial shock of it all, quite a few have signed on to the Premier sub.

---

Deleted all DAZ cookies, restarted the OS, still no cancel button.

So Daz is under fire for Premier? Good.

LuckyStallion posted at 9:18 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490137

Katsuyaki posted at 8:45 PM Wed, 9 October 2024 - #4490135

Rottenham : "My DAZ login seems to be coming back to life now. I was blocked, and getting an error message I'd never seen before. Only on DAZ though, and only today, so I was suspicious. Now it seems to be clearing up. I'll keep an eye on it."

Take a look at your account once you've logged back in. It looks like any DAZ+ members have been migrated over to DAZ Plus accounts, with its monthly billing. You don't want to get hit with any surprise charges on your credit card or bank account after the first of the month.

I think @Rottenham might be talking about the weird Google "We're sorry..." message that's been popping up randomly since last night.  I looked everywhere to find something about it, but couldn't find a thing.  Seems to be happening sporadically today, too.

And I've had the honor of having one of my very few comments over at their forums deleted.  It was in the thread speculating on whether DS was going to go rentware and I had chimed in with:

"Wanted to add my feelings of dislike for a future of renting the studio and its products.  I'm not keen at all on the idea, but there are signs that it may be creeping closer and I feel like it's important to speak out early with these kinds of things (like with the advent of Daz Connect.)  I've been a loyal customer for quite a long time now, but renting is a bridge too far for me.  Please do reconsider this 'Premier' stuff."

And overnight mine and several others' comments were wholesale deleted by a mod, claiming, "and this is why we do not allow speculation."  I guess the backlash is spooking someone in charge over yonder.  The mod deleted every comment mentioning Premier in a negative light, citing that "there are already multiple threads on the topic," yet interestingly decided to leave the few remarks that were positive/neutral.

Tiring.

Welcome to the club!
Sorry, you do not get a t-shirt or anything. Just the dubious reputation of daring to say something against the Daz Gods.

It says a LOT about a company if they can not listen to criticism without flipping out and deleting/hiding things.

It means they are not caring of customer satisfaction. They do not care about our input. They...do NOT CARE.
While the program is a wee gem, the members of their staff, their team...are not.

It's the black mark on the entire thing.

Criticism is not something that should be ignored. SMART companies, hear it, listen and work WITH their customers. NOT AGAINST THEM.

And as I know their wee eyes are watching these threads...maybe...just MAYBE one of them will have  the guts to stand by customers just ONCE.

OH! and btw...as of last night before logic took over, and I attempted this odd thing sleep. I had been taking full page screenshots of one of the forums that was raging against the new subscription. So if anyone wants those...let me know.

ALSO…

Feeling helpless? Feeling tired of being ignored by the big mods?
There are other ways to skin cats(no cats have ever been harmed)
There is LinkedIn…
You see, the daz site is an echo chamber. But there is a way to get heard.
I believe…that the name Matt wilburn will ring a bell to a few.

The one thing people keep forgetting…is their voice CAN be heard.

That they CAN make a difference.
Daz is a company reliant on customers. WE are those customers.
If people actually started to take valid complaints up the ladder, someone either has to listen or other people will hear you and start avoiding the situations at Daz.

DarkElegance posted at 5:15 PM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490168

           The one thing people keep forgetting…is their voice CAN be heard.

---

Me, I don't want to be heard. Not there, anyway. I just want the models.

I was finally able to log in to my actual account. There's no cancel button anywhere. I know somebody here was able to see one, but I can't. I tried to engage DAZ Tech Support over it, but their interest was short lived. I even sent them screen shots, with no response. Zzzz.....

Then I discovered they had blocked my credit card, the one they've been using happily for a few years. It's a fine card, nobody else has a problem with it, but they did. I used a different card, and it worked. Will it work tomorrow? Who can say. You just can't use a marketing person as a project manager, it's obvious that's what they've done. It's a miracle they've lasted this long.

---

FWIW, here's something I'm working on. I found I had an old Genesis Aniblock that was a "Zombie Walk." I broke it up into poses, I can get a dozen poses out of it. Then I found, here on Renderosity, a script that can apply an old pose to a new character. It works very well, and the price was right. Here the old poses are applied to a G8. Ugly faces have been added. Only torn, filthy clothing is missing. DAZ has an Iray shader for that. I have a plan for these characters. It will be a surprise.

Rottenham posted at 6:29 PM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490172

DarkElegance posted at 5:15 PM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490168

           The one thing people keep forgetting…is their voice CAN be heard.

---

Me, I don't want to be heard. Not there, anyway. I just want the models.

I was finally able to log in to my actual account. There's no cancel button anywhere. I know somebody here was able to see one, but I can't. I tried to engage DAZ Tech Support over it, but their interest was short lived. I even sent them screen shots, with no response. Zzzz.....

Then I discovered they had blocked my credit card, the one they've been using happily for a few years. It's a fine card, nobody else has a problem with it, but they did. I used a different card, and it worked. Will it work tomorrow? Who can say. You just can't use a marketing person as a project manager, it's obvious that's what they've done. It's a miracle they've lasted this long.

---

FWIW, here's something I'm working on. I found I had an old Genesis Aniblock that was a "Zombie Walk." I broke it up into poses, I can get a dozen poses out of it. Then I found, here on Renderosity, a script that can apply an old pose to a new character. It works very well, and the price was right. Here the old poses are applied to a G8. Ugly faces have been added. Only torn, filthy clothing is missing. DAZ has an Iray shader for that. I have a plan for these characters. It will be a surprise.

Aye, there is no cancel button for daz+ I have tried various browsers etc.
Under the free daz membership, there is a cancel button(why? It's free!)
but under the daz+ nope...


"Me, I don't want to be heard. Not there, anyway. I just want the models."

And that...is how they are still able to do what they do to their customers. Because of that "we have the models".
And as long as people kowtow to it...they will keep at it....

ghosty12 posted at 10:03 AM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490157

[SNIP] The funny thing Daz just gave thirteen freebies to Daz+ and Premier users, my guess is to placate folks.[SNIP]

They gave those to everyone. I'm not Daz+/Plus/Premiere and I got them as well.

zombietaggerung posted at 10:00 PM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490179

ghosty12 posted at 10:03 AM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490157

[SNIP] The funny thing Daz just gave thirteen freebies to Daz+ and Premier users, my guess is to placate folks.[SNIP]

They gave those to everyone. I'm not Daz+/Plus/Premiere and I got them as well.

I didn't get shit, and I'm still technically a DAZ Plus (formerly DAZ+) member. I also noticed that -- since I submitted my request to have them downgrade my account to DAZ Base -- I'm not getting their emails, either. It would appear that I'm being snubbed.

Katsuyaki posted at 2:07 AM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490182

zombietaggerung posted at 10:00 PM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490179

ghosty12 posted at 10:03 AM Thu, 10 October 2024 - #4490157

[SNIP] The funny thing Daz just gave thirteen freebies to Daz+ and Premier users, my guess is to placate folks.[SNIP]

They gave those to everyone. I'm not Daz+/Plus/Premiere and I got them as well.

I didn't get shit, and I'm still technically a DAZ Plus (formerly DAZ+) member. I also noticed that -- since I submitted my request to have them downgrade my account to DAZ Base -- I'm not getting their emails, either. It would appear that I'm being snubbed.

EDIT: Looking further, I see that at least six seemingly-random items that I didn't purchase have been added to my Product Library with absolutely no notice or explanation. If DAZ is trying to buy my loyalty, it ain't gonna work...

Katsuyaki posted at 2:22 AM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490183

EDIT: Looking further, I see that at least six seemingly-random items that I didn't purchase have been added to my Product Library with absolutely no notice or explanation. If DAZ is trying to buy my loyalty, it ain't gonna work...

---

I found 10 in mine. At first I thought it was evidence of a software debacle.

These are all the "freebies" that were added to people's accounts. Some of them may not show up for you at the top of your product library if you already own them

• Tubal Weapons Collection
• Eirgrid Hair for Genesis 9
• dForce Leather Viking Armor for Genesis 9
• HDRI Starter Pack <-- This one doesn't seem to have a product page
  
• Snow Queen LIE Makeup Collection for Genesis 9
• Worker Uniform Outfit for Genesis 9
• CDI Space Valkyrie Poses for Genesis 9
• Mavick Hair and Beard for Genesis 8 and 9
• Amelia 9 HD Makeup Collection
• Worker Uniform Outfit for Genesis 9 Texture Add-On

They are content for use with updates to Scene Builder adn the Interactive Tutorials, so I guess long(ish)-planned.

It is oddly placed, I agree (perhaps the idea is that base is where you end up after using it - if you are in Base I guess you get the subscxribe button under the memberships, sso it does sort of fit) but the cancel button under Base is the one for cancelling either of the non-free memberships.

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

---

Remote servers have been acknowledged to be a security risk from the start. That's the reason they were renamed to "the Cloud." Personally, I avoid them. As for "AI," it is a term generally used to mean "way cool."

Rottenham posted at 5:00 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490218

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

---

Remote servers have been acknowledged to be a security risk from the start. That's the reason they were renamed to "the Cloud." Personally, I avoid them. As for "AI," it is a term generally used to mean "way cool."

Yeah, the generative image engine thing is especially annoying; I really won't even use one as a tool in a workflow as pretty much all of them have been developed with questionable ethics, even if they've been switching over to "We've licensed the content, albeit from art sites that switched their user terms to opt-out sublicensing agreements that allowed them to feed us that data". Plus, given the speed it can be effectively automated for posting that generated content, it rapidly becomes Ouroboros, eating it's own content, and a resulting rapid example of the dangers of inbreeding.

So now I'm to the point that I have to decide between:
1) Keep using my slowly outdating DAZStudio install. I'm actually finding this not terribly appealing in the long term, in part because I'm determined to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.
2) Buy a new version of Poser and basically abandon all the Genesis content I've purchased licenses to. I've switched back and forth a few times, but I've been doing DAZ exclusively since the one credit card payment processor breach here at Renderosity over 10 years ago. Plus, I'd like to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.
3) Buy iClone and completely abandon the content I've purchased licenses to. This is really an unappealing option to me on a lot of levels. Plus, I'd like to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.
4) Move to Blender full time, convert what I can to it as I need it, and just force myself to make it work. This works the most with the way I've been moving; I really want to be off the closed source OS ecosystems in the next five years, I already have it installed, and I can if I'm motivated enough convert pretty much everything I might use over the next few years.
5) Go back to "pen and paper", albeit using the sketch pad screen I happen to already have and haven't used as much as I should.

Either way? Odds are pretty good that I'm pretty much done buying licenses for 3D content at all (unless it comes specifically for an open source software), especially if I'm making a choice to abandon content I've purchased licenses for, which is unfortunate for everybody involved. I haven't even downloaded the added free content DAZ put on my account, because I just can't even give them any indication that I'm using their product anymore.

How do you people prevent Daz from phoning home? Windows Firewall or other measures? Do you still use DIM or do you install manually?

Sydney, I'm with you on OS choice. I can see how Daz are bound to keep the src closed as it's intertwinded with Iray, which I guess NV won't open src, but still I'd appreciate a Linux version as Windows needs to f-ing die.
Outside Daz I have no idea what's really out there. Sculpt from scratch is beyond the time I can invest so in terms of features Daz does what I want, but what competetion is out there? Poser looks like last decade, sorry. iClone - what else do I need here? What else is out there? 

DexterF posted at 10:44 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490223

How do you people prevent Daz from phoning home? Windows Firewall or other measures? Do you still use DIM or do you install manually?

I use Windows Firewall to block it right now. I also install stuff manually anymore; I haven't bought anything at DAZ in many months, all my recent purchases are here, but I'm looking hard as to whether or not it's worth it to keep buying licenses for any DAZ/Poser content if I'm going to be forced into moving to Blender or using my drawing tablet.

As a note, if I'd been forced to throw out the four computers I moved to Linux, I would have basically committed to removing their functions in the house entirely - most of them are used for media, gaming, or craft hobby purposes, and I can't justify spending money to maintain those features in separate machines in the house right now, not when that money should go to other things.

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:40 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490221

So now I'm to the point that I have to decide between:

---

When DAZ finally wheedles enough income out of their rentware, the "free" option will disappear, except for maybe a "free trial." It's a matter of when.

If that happened tomorrow, I would go with iClone. It has two shortcomings. It's ability to import characters from DAZ is limited. For lack of a custom import filter, iClone can't do even a marginal job of importing DAZ's talking animals, which no other source offers. That would be a loss. You can turn them into a talking entity, but all the poses and animations would need to be recreated. Ugh. Other than that, getting an iClone file out as an Iray image (or animation), while not impossible, is needlessly complex. I do wonder what Nvidia has up their sleeve for the next level GPU release, the 4090 being ~2K these days.

Blender is a last resort, because of its UI. Nothing is self-evident, everything must be memorized. However, I do believe it runs in Linux, which might come in handy.

As for the whole issue of licensing, I'm no lawyer. I'm under the impression that it mainly involves selling the model itself. I believe I (we) have permission to display an image, still or animated. I believe I could probably print it on, say, a coffee cup without licensing issues. I could be wrong about that. It is already nearly illegal to listen to a song on somebody else's radio.

We are seeing an exponential rate of tech-related societal change today. I'm not sure it's possible to prepare for the future. In some cases, like with DAZ, we don't even know what the present is. My lease expires in the year 0000.

Rottenham posted at 11:08 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490225

When DAZ finally wheedles enough income out of their rentware, the "free" option will disappear, except for maybe a "free trial." It's a matter of when.

What I expect is happening already is that they'll be offering a deal that's better on the surface to select artists in their storefront to offer content exclusively for the Premium subscription option.

If that happened tomorrow, I would go with iClone. It has two shortcomings. It's ability to import characters from DAZ is limited. For lack of a custom import filter, iClone can't do even a marginal job of importing DAZ's talking animals, which no other source offers. That would be a loss. You can turn them into a talking entity, but all the poses and animations would need to be recreated. Ugh. Other than that, getting an iClone file out as an Iray image (or animation), while not impossible, is needlessly complex. I do wonder what Nvidia has up their sleeve for the next level GPU release, the 4090 being ~2K these days.

Yeah, I looked and the Convert DAZ Content plugins appear to have been left behind several versions ago, so I already assumed that I might as well leave all my content behind if I go that route.

Blender is a last resort, because of its UI. Nothing is self-evident, everything must be memorized. However, I do believe it runs in Linux, which might come in handy.

I actually already use Blender for certain home projects (I own some 3D printers), so it won't be as major a move for me outside of content conversion. It does run on Linux, so when I make the move off Windows completely, it will be there, so I might as well consider it the engine I use going forward.

As for the whole issue of licensing, I'm no lawyer. I'm under the impression that it mainly involves selling the model itself. I believe I (we) have permission to display an image, still or animated. I believe I could probably print it on, say, a coffee cup without licensing issues. I could be wrong about that. It is already nearly illegal to listen to a song on somebody else's radio.

Yeah, the licensing is all about being able to make art you can call your own. Some might argue that I will require the additional Extended licensing to convert that content to Blender for the purpose of making my art, but those artists making that argument I would delete their content and never buy from them again.

We are seeing an exponential rate of tech-related societal change today. I'm not sure it's possible to prepare for the future. In some cases, like with DAZ, we don't even know what the present is. My lease expires in the year 0000.

About the only prep I can effectively do for the future, is make sure that I have full unadulterated control over my own hardware that I've paid for, wherever I can do so, and that does mean stepping away from just about all commercial software offerings involving it. There is no such thing as a "perpetual" software license, at best it only effectively lasts as long as you have a computer that can run the software.

SydneyInPeril posted at 11:32 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490226

About the only prep I can effectively do for the future, is make sure that I have full unadulterated control over my own hardware that I've paid for, wherever I can do so, and that does mean stepping away from just about all commercial software offerings involving it. There is no such thing as a "perpetual" software license, at best it only effectively lasts as long as you have a computer that can run the software.

Legality will always be connected to money. Look at Disney, getting copyright extended to 70 years. Most younger people today have never seen any of the films I grew up on, never heard of any of the great actors and actresses. The purpose of copyright law was to protect the artists. Now it's used to make them disappear.

About copyright, the Chinese say "How can I steal it if there isn't anything missing?" Any good idea can look ridiculous when taken to an extreme. Al Gore passed a law in 1996, the DMCA, that says anything we post on a website becomes the PROPERTY of that website. What was he thinking.

I've tried to read about these laws, but every other word is Maybe and Sometimes and Possibly.

...........................................................

When the Music Industry turned against the music video, Popular Music as we knew it devolved into cursing and shouting. Today, rentware is having a negative effect on our definition of Art.

I LOVE LA --- LOVE IS A BATTLEFIELD --- HOT FOR TEACHER

There's a good reason that there's people out there saying that the only good thing for a person to do if they want to have a presence on the internet is to open their own website, and by extension, use various social media presence to advertise that site instead of hosting their content on social media where it gets sublicensed out of one's own control.

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

You are not required to be online all the time, only (at intervals) briefly to verify the membership for the plug-ins and exclusive content included. Daz Studio gets information from the daz servers, it does not send info (except for anonymised data if you opted in to the product Improvement Program, in Edit>Preferences)

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

The Daz Gebrative AI is trained solely on Daz-owned images - nothing from the PAs or gallery, let alone scraped from the running application.

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:40 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490221

Rottenham posted at 5:00 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490218

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

---

Remote servers have been acknowledged to be a security risk from the start. That's the reason they were renamed to "the Cloud." Personally, I avoid them. As for "AI," it is a term generally used to mean "way cool."

Yeah, the generative image engine thing is especially annoying; I really won't even use one as a tool in a workflow as pretty much all of them have been developed with questionable ethics, even if they've been switching over to "We've licensed the content, albeit from art sites that switched their user terms to opt-out sublicensing agreements that allowed them to feed us that data". Plus, given the speed it can be effectively automated for posting that generated content, it rapidly becomes Ouroboros, eating it's own content, and a resulting rapid example of the dangers of inbreeding.

As noted above, the only images used to train the Daz LoRA are the promo images it owns for its own content.

So now I'm to the point that I have to decide between:
1) Keep using my slowly outdating DAZStudio install. I'm actually finding this not terribly appealing in the long term, in part because I'm determined to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.

Why no use the current version? Unles you sign up for Premier and wish to use the plug-ins or the exclusive content (of which there is currently one item) nothing has changed, beyond feature additions and bug fixes.

2) Buy a new version of Poser and basically abandon all the Genesis content I've purchased licenses to. I've switched back and forth a few times, but I've been doing DAZ exclusively since the one credit card payment processor breach here at Renderosity over 10 years ago. Plus, I'd like to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.
3) Buy iClone and completely abandon the content I've purchased licenses to. This is really an unappealing option to me on a lot of levels. Plus, I'd like to leave the closed source OS ecosystem in the next five years.
4) Move to Blender full time, convert what I can to it as I need it, and just force myself to make it work. This works the most with the way I've been moving; I really want to be off the closed source OS ecosystems in the next five years, I already have it installed, and I can if I'm motivated enough convert pretty much everything I might use over the next few years.
5) Go back to "pen and paper", albeit using the sketch pad screen I happen to already have and haven't used as much as I should.

Either way? Odds are pretty good that I'm pretty much done buying licenses for 3D content at all (unless it comes specifically for an open source software), especially if I'm making a choice to abandon content I've purchased licenses for, which is unfortunate for everybody involved. I haven't even downloaded the added free content DAZ put on my account, because I just can't even give them any indication that I'm using their product anymore.

DexterF posted at 10:44 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490223

How do you people prevent Daz from phoning home? Windows Firewall or other measures? Do you still use DIM or do you install manually?

Opt out of the product Improvement program in preferences. Anything else it does (update checks or notifications in the New dialogue) it dos by asking for information, it doesn't send any information back to Daz (and the improvement program is anonymised)

Sydney, I'm with you on OS choice. I can see how Daz are bound to keep the src closed as it's intertwinded with Iray, which I guess NV won't open src, but still I'd appreciate a Linux version as Windows needs to f-ing die.
Outside Daz I have no idea what's really out there. Sculpt from scratch is beyond the time I can invest so in terms of features Daz does what I want, but what competetion is out there? Poser looks like last decade, sorry. iClone - what else do I need here? What else is out there? 

Rottenham posted at 11:08 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490225

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:40 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490221

So now I'm to the point that I have to decide between:

---

When DAZ finally wheedles enough income out of their rentware, the "free" option will disappear, except for maybe a "free trial." It's a matter of when.

That is a matter of opinion rather than a "matter of when". You are enttiled to your opinion, of course, but readers should bear the distinction in mind.

If that happened tomorrow, I would go with iClone. It has two shortcomings. It's ability to import characters from DAZ is limited. For lack of a custom import filter, iClone can't do even a marginal job of importing DAZ's talking animals, which no other source offers. That would be a loss. You can turn them into a talking entity, but all the poses and animations would need to be recreated. Ugh. Other than that, getting an iClone file out as an Iray image (or animation), while not impossible, is needlessly complex. I do wonder what Nvidia has up their sleeve for the next level GPU release, the 4090 being ~2K these days.

Blender is a last resort, because of its UI. Nothing is self-evident, everything must be memorized. However, I do believe it runs in Linux, which might come in handy.

As for the whole issue of licensing, I'm no lawyer. I'm under the impression that it mainly involves selling the model itself. I believe I (we) have permission to display an image, still or animated. I believe I could probably print it on, say, a coffee cup without licensing issues. I could be wrong about that. It is already nearly illegal to listen to a song on somebody else's radio.

We are seeing an exponential rate of tech-related societal change today. I'm not sure it's possible to prepare for the future. In some cases, like with DAZ, we don't even know what the present is. My lease expires in the year 0000.

SydneyInPeril posted at 5:30 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490235

There's a good reason that there's people out there saying that the only good thing for a person to do if they want to have a presence on the internet is to open their own website, and by extension, use various social media presence to advertise that site instead of hosting their content on social media where it gets sublicensed out of one's own control.

When I was young, I had a friend whose father was a syndicated cartoonist. He worked in his home studio three days a week. Drove a brand new car. I envied him. Too bad the newspapers are gone. I've been posting cartoons on Bitchute lately, just trying to learn what people think is funny.

Rottenham posted at 2:26 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490230

SydneyInPeril posted at 11:32 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490226

About the only prep I can effectively do for the future, is make sure that I have full unadulterated control over my own hardware that I've paid for, wherever I can do so, and that does mean stepping away from just about all commercial software offerings involving it. There is no such thing as a "perpetual" software license, at best it only effectively lasts as long as you have a computer that can run the software.

Legality will always be connected to money. Look at Disney, getting copyright extended to 70 years. Most younger people today have never seen any of the films I grew up on, never heard of any of the great actors and actresses. The purpose of copyright law was to protect the artists. Now it's used to make them disappear.

The films are not on endless repeat on various cable and on demand services?

About copyright, the Chinese say "How can I steal it if there isn't anything missing?" Any good idea can look ridiculous when taken to an extreme. Al Gore passed a law in 1996, the DMCA, that says anything we post on a website becomes the PROPERTY of that website. What was he thinking.

No, that is not what the DMCA says. The DMCA gives hosts a degree of protection by allowing them to function as intermediaries rather than having to police the content submitted - if X sees an infringement they report it to the host and it is taken down, details of the complaint being passed to the uploader. if the complaint is invalid the uploader can submit a countre notice, the host restores the content, and the counter notice is passed to the complainant; it is then up to the compalainant to decide whether to pursue the uploader using the supplied contact details, with the host leaving the content up or taking it down as dtermined by the outcome of any legal action. It is not an ideal system - a stalker's dream since the victim won't want to complain or submit a counter notice with their details 9unless they can afford lawyers) and similarly useful for perople wanting to cover up embarrassing information - but it doesn't do what you say.

I've tried to read about these laws, but every other word is Maybe and Sometimes and Possibly.

...........................................................

When the Music Industry turned against the music video, Popular Music as we knew it devolved into cursing and shouting. Today, rentware is having a negative effect on our definition of Art.

I LOVE LA --- LOVE IS A BATTLEFIELD --- HOT FOR TEACHER

Rottenham posted at 2:26 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490230

SydneyInPeril posted at 11:32 AM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490226

About the only prep I can effectively do for the future, is make sure that I have full unadulterated control over my own hardware that I've paid for, wherever I can do so, and that does mean stepping away from just about all commercial software offerings involving it. There is no such thing as a "perpetual" software license, at best it only effectively lasts as long as you have a computer that can run the software.

Legality will always be connected to money. Look at Disney, getting copyright extended to 70 years. Most younger people today have never seen any of the films I grew up on, never heard of any of the great actors and actresses. The purpose of copyright law was to protect the artists. Now it's used to make them disappear.

About copyright, the Chinese say "How can I steal it if there isn't anything missing?" Any good idea can look ridiculous when taken to an extreme. Al Gore passed a law in 1996, the DMCA, that says anything we post on a website becomes the PROPERTY of that website. What was he thinking.

I've tried to read about these laws, but every other word is Maybe and Sometimes and Possibly.

...........................................................

When the Music Industry turned against the music video, Popular Music as we knew it devolved into cursing and shouting. Today, rentware is having a negative effect on our definition of Art.

I LOVE LA --- LOVE IS A BATTLEFIELD --- HOT FOR TEACHER

Theft of digital product is not about something "missing" but rather the right to copy/duplicate it.

That is the difference.

You arent "taking the item away" but you are "copying it" without permission.

I think as digital artists we have ran across that from time to time. Finding our work earning someone else money without us getting a red cent!

The current IP laws are to protect artists from having their work "copied" without consent. And depending on the country they can be good laws or bad...

I know I have and its why I really dont like pirating....

DarkElegance posted at 9:10 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490254

Theft of digital product is not about something "missing" but rather the right to copy/duplicate it.

That is the difference.

You arent "taking the item away" but you are "copying it" without permission.

I think as digital artists we have ran across that from time to time. Finding our work earning someone else money without us getting a red cent!

The current IP laws are to protect artists from having their work "copied" without consent. And depending on the country they can be good laws or bad...

I know I have and its why I really dont like pirating....

---

As a kid, I was disciplined strongly for theft. I don't do it, but I see others do it often. In art school, I saw one of my assignments reappear as a movie poster. I never imagined it was a coincidence. I saw other examples too. I recently read one of the sellers on this site complaining about theft of his excellent products. We can give it a special name, as we like to do, like "virtual theft" or "digital theft," but theft is theft. I see it as a matter of pride and integrity. That said, it's pretty hard to stop. FWIW, Nikola Tesla died penniless after a brilliant and productive career, thanks partially to theft of his ideas. Tesla invented radio, for example, but Marconi patented it.

We have a lawyer behind every blade of grass, but theft (of any variety) is primarily an integrity issue.  In some cases our laws actually legalize IP theft. The DMCA of 1996 comes to mind. It's a sign of the times we live in.

On this note, I've noticed that almost zero artists add their signature or pen name to their work these days. I don't understand why.

RHaseltine posted at 7:41 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490240

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

You are not required to be online all the time, only (at intervals) briefly to verify the membership for the plug-ins and exclusive content included. Daz Studio gets information from the daz servers, it does not send info (except for anonymised data if you opted in to the product Improvement Program, in Edit>Preferences)\

Adobe does all sorts of Passive Aggressive crap that makes it harder every year to effectively keep a machine offline while using it. I would not assume that DAZ won't do the same sorts of things.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

The Daz Gebrative AI is trained solely on Daz-owned images - nothing from the PAs or gallery, let alone scraped from the running application.

For now. There's two ways it will go; either they will find it not generating the revenue they need and stop, or they'll attempt to amend their TOS to feed submitted Gallery art into the engine unless artists Opt Out and hope people don't notice. I'm too cynical to assume the status quo will stay.

Look what other software can do these days. The reason people stick to Daz is that they sunk considerable amounts of money into a software ecosystem that's large and by compatible to only itself. You are hardware locked into NV (unless you are seriously willing to software render, which I can only recommend to high elves and other eternals) and is riddled with ridiculous feature lackings, such as the main mode in the editor being actually software rendered which means large resp. complex scenes are impossible. Their forum is from last millenium, their shop is magnitued behind the competition (Rendo, Rhub), support is practically non-existent, so is documentation. You can only run multiple instances with a 3rd party script that can break any day and if you use it a plugins like Bookmark Manager don't work as only the UI of the main instance saves them to disk, the others won't merge. And we haven't started on how out of nowhere cryptic erroneous entries appear overnight which only gives you a glimpse of what a patchwork the underlying code must be. The content libraries are void of useful search functions or display options. I could go on and on. 

All of this I could stomach as long as it was free, but now 18.99 a month to get a handful of good features while the rest stays a ruin and questions about DS5 roadmaps get deleted?

zombietaggerung posted at 3:34 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490202

These are all the "freebies" that were added to people's accounts. Some of them may not show up for you at the top of your product library if you already own them

• Tubal Weapons Collection
• Eirgrid Hair for Genesis 9
• dForce Leather Viking Armor for Genesis 9
• HDRI Starter Pack <-- This one doesn't seem to have a product page
  
• Snow Queen LIE Makeup Collection for Genesis 9
• Worker Uniform Outfit for Genesis 9
• CDI Space Valkyrie Poses for Genesis 9
• Mavick Hair and Beard for Genesis 8 and 9
• Amelia 9 HD Makeup Collection
• Worker Uniform Outfit for Genesis 9 Texture Add-On

Now I see why I only got a few of these added to my content library: I'd already bought the other stuff.

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

My work machine is completely isolated from the internet. I use a different machine to go online with, and transfer over whatever files I need on the work machine manually with a portable hard-drive. Not very hi-tech, but it works. However, it also means that I probably can't use the Premier version of DAZ Studio on that machine, since it seems like it would need to phone home at least once (and probably periodically) to verify your membership status to use the Premier content. Another reason I won't be subscribing. 

DexterF posted at 9:49 AM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490274

Look what other software can do these days. The reason people stick to Daz is that they sunk considerable amounts of money into a software ecosystem that's large and by compatible to only itself. You are hardware locked into NV (unless you are seriously willing to software render, which I can only recommend to high elves and other eternals) and is riddled with ridiculous feature lackings, such as the main mode in the editor being actually software rendered which means large resp. complex scenes are impossible. Their forum is from last millenium, their shop is magnitued behind the competition (Rendo, Rhub), support is practically non-existent, so is documentation. You can only run multiple instances with a 3rd party script that can break any day and if you use it a plugins like Bookmark Manager don't work as only the UI of the main instance saves them to disk, the others won't merge. And we haven't started on how out of nowhere cryptic erroneous entries appear overnight which only gives you a glimpse of what a patchwork the underlying code must be. The content libraries are void of useful search functions or display options. I could go on and on. 

All of this I could stomach as long as it was free, but now 18.99 a month to get a handful of good features while the rest stays a ruin and questions about DS5 roadmaps get deleted?

I wish there was an up vote feature here....

Katsuyaki posted at 1:13 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490279

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

My work machine is completely isolated from the internet. I use a different machine to go online with, and transfer over whatever files I need on the work machine manually with a portable hard-drive. Not very hi-tech, but it works. However, it also means that I probably can't use the Premier version of DAZ Studio on that machine, since it seems like it would need to phone home at least once (and probably periodically) to verify your membership status to use the Premier content. Another reason I won't be subscribing. 

I have my "faffing about" puter, then I have my graphics puter. The graphics puter only connects for me to install Daz content and that is about it. It is -only- for graphic work. Nothing else.

SydneyInPeril posted at 9:33 AM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490272

RHaseltine posted at 7:41 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490240

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

You are not required to be online all the time, only (at intervals) briefly to verify the membership for the plug-ins and exclusive content included. Daz Studio gets information from the daz servers, it does not send info (except for anonymised data if you opted in to the product Improvement Program, in Edit>Preferences)\

Adobe does all sorts of Passive Aggressive crap that makes it harder every year to effectively keep a machine offline while using it. I would not assume that DAZ won't do the same sorts of things.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

The Daz Gebrative AI is trained solely on Daz-owned images - nothing from the PAs or gallery, let alone scraped from the running application.

For now. There's two ways it will go; either they will find it not generating the revenue they need and stop, or they'll attempt to amend their TOS to feed submitted Gallery art into the engine unless artists Opt Out and hope people don't notice. I'm too cynical to assume the status quo will stay.

Those are not the only two possibilities - you may well be being unduly cynical.

Katsuyaki posted at 1:13 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490279

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

My work machine is completely isolated from the internet. I use a different machine to go online with, and transfer over whatever files I need on the work machine manually with a portable hard-drive. Not very hi-tech, but it works. However, it also means that I probably can't use the Premier version of DAZ Studio on that machine, since it seems like it would need to phone home at least once (and probably periodically) to verify your membership status to use the Premier content. Another reason I won't be subscribing. 

Yes, it doesn't need an always-on connection but it does require you to periodically log-in to use the plug-ins and the exclusive content (other content, including the free bundles, don't require that)

DexterF posted at 9:49 AM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490274

You can only run multiple instances with a 3rd party script that can break any day and if you use it a plugins like Bookmark Manager don't work as only the UI of the main instance saves them to disk, the others won't merge. And we haven't started on how out of nowhere cryptic erroneous entries appear overnight which only gives you a glimpse of what a patchwork the underlying code must be.

Daz Studio Pro 4.12 - instances
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/referenceguide/tech_articles/command_line_options/start

Daz studio has built in tools for instance control and to determine whether an instance has its own UI settings or uses those from another instance, or just starts clean each time.

By cryptic erroneous entries do you mean the GUID displayed for custom actions when the path to the file cannot be resolved?

The content libraries are void of useful search functions or display options. I could go on and on. 

Smart Content already has a lot of search options, as well as features like tagginf. The latest build has added some of these to the Content Library pane.

RHaseltine posted at 5:30 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490294

Yes, it doesn't need an always-on connection but it does require you to periodically log-in to use the plug-ins and the exclusive content (other content, including the free bundles, don't require that)

---

Tell me please.

Will I be able to continue using DAZ as I do now? I would forego the special new features and the special new models. Would I be able to continue to buy the models I can buy now? Without phoning home? Or will "free" be redefined?

RHaseltine posted at 5:28 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490293

SydneyInPeril posted at 9:33 AM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490272

RHaseltine posted at 7:41 PM Sat, 12 October 2024 - #4490240

SydneyInPeril posted at 8:54 PM Fri, 11 October 2024 - #4490212

Ugh, I deal with the Rent-Ware thing as part of my day job, and it frustrates me there at what they do to attempt to make us be online to them all the time. I shudder to think of what a much smaller company will do to attempt to force someone to be online all the time to let their activity with the product be viewed, especially with their dalliance with generative engines.

You are not required to be online all the time, only (at intervals) briefly to verify the membership for the plug-ins and exclusive content included. Daz Studio gets information from the daz servers, it does not send info (except for anonymised data if you opted in to the product Improvement Program, in Edit>Preferences)\

Adobe does all sorts of Passive Aggressive crap that makes it harder every year to effectively keep a machine offline while using it. I would not assume that DAZ won't do the same sorts of things.

Other options are looking so much more viable by the day.

Note that I deliberately killed DAZStudio's ability to phone home on my system when I found out about the generative image engine thing.

The Daz Gebrative AI is trained solely on Daz-owned images - nothing from the PAs or gallery, let alone scraped from the running application.

For now. There's two ways it will go; either they will find it not generating the revenue they need and stop, or they'll attempt to amend their TOS to feed submitted Gallery art into the engine unless artists Opt Out and hope people don't notice. I'm too cynical to assume the status quo will stay.

Those are not the only two possibilities - you may well be being unduly cynical.

They might not be... but we've all watched DAZ sinking slowly in terms of consistently reducing what people get for the old baseline subscription, the lack of support, that support tickets continue to remain open or are closed randomly with no indication they're being looked at, stuff like the temporary dalliance with advertising on the forum and gallery without announcing it being as such... given the pattern, I am willing to be overly cynical so I can be pleasantly surprised when they pull back from overly wrong decisions, rather than be horribly disappointed when people double down on the overly wrong decisions. Plus, such a high percentage of Generative Image Engines are deliberately fed with unethically sourced images (read: scraped from everywhere that has images posted regardless of the intended licensing of the post) that all of us have to assume that at some point the place DAZ is subcontracting it to (I find it really hard to conceive that DAZ has staff on hand that can create a Generative Engine) is going to demand more for the engine that can't be provided without changing the TOS and pulling our renders before we even post them to galleries.

You're a forum moderator and possibly paid Public Relations Staff over there, which also means that we have to automatically assume you're trying to make things look good. Be aware that things really do not look good from out here, so you have an uphill battle, compounded by your connections to them.

I was concerned when the DMCA was passed that it would turn artists into lawyers. This is why.

Rottenham posted at 5:47 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490298

RHaseltine posted at 5:30 PM Sun, 13 October 2024 - #4490294

Yes, it doesn't need an always-on connection but it does require you to periodically log-in to use the plug-ins and the exclusive content (other content, including the free bundles, don't require that)

---

Tell me please.

Will I be able to continue using DAZ as I do now? I would forego the special new features and the special new models. Would I be able to continue to buy the models I can buy now? Without phoning home? Or will "free" be redefined?

Yes. No core feature of DS requires an idenmitfiable call home - if it can, it will ask for generic notifications (the bits that appear in the New scene dialogue - on which, the latest update has restoed the File>Open Recent sub-menu) but it won't do anything to identify you or send data to Daz without asking/being told to.