There's another thread going on currently about the future of  "content" figures.  It's largely a discussion of advantanced and klugey rigging techniques and how long it will be feasible to support both the Daz and Poser markets with the same characters.

There is a clip in the video I linked to above where a figure is posed simply by grabbing and dragging the hands and feet.  The neat thing is that this is not a rigged figure, but a solid mesh.  They are using a custom solver to somehow discern (via body mass?) how this character should bend.  It's not a totally realistic effect, as the character ends up moving like a rubber figurine, but at least to the eye it looks good, especially with the mo-cap data applied.

This got me thinking that the future really isn't in the figures, but in the rigging itself.  Mesh resolution and rigging are the two areas where the most attention has been paid to commercial figures, and with each new one comes the need to build or buy complementing accessories.

So, my idea is similar to zBrush modeling rigs.  I'm thinking of a kind of default rigged bipedal cage.  It has the proportions of a basic human, and has been rigged down to the hands and feet, perhaps even to the fingers and toes.  What it would do is let you import a figure of your own creation, say from makehuman or zBrush, and then adjust the cage until it fits the imported mesh.  Then the mesh could be bound ot the cage and a new figure would exist, able to share any pose or motion created for the pose rig.  Muscle deformers could be linked to the pose rig and would available for any future figure created.  Of course changing the size and proportion of the pose rig would affect its poses.  (Perhaps a special-case use of IK could try to make sure that hands and feet stay in the same absolute locations, as they are the parts most likely to be in the wrong place when using one figure's poses with another.)  A more advanced solution could perhaps try to make sure parts didn't intersect, say when a pose for a skinny figure is applied to an obese one.  Also, shouldn't it be much easier to transfer facial poses from one figure to another than it currently is?  Why can't I just line up the new figure with the old one and have the software create corresponding morph deltas?  Maybe someday makehuman will be able to let me match the default figure's proportions to an imported mesh, then transfer a pose from the default figure to the imported mesh?  It'd be a start, like conforming in reverse almost.

I'm sure most of this is off topic.  But as I keep coming across threads prediciting the end of Poser, I can't help but think that it's the figure business causing the problem.  There might not be a way to make rigging automatic, but for a basic human figure it shouldn't need to be done from scratch every single time.

Quote - There's another thread going on currently about the future of  "content" figures.  It's largely a discussion of advantanced and klugey rigging techniques and how long it will be feasible to support both the Daz and Poser markets with the same characters.

There is a clip in the video I linked to above where a figure is posed simply by grabbing and dragging the hands and feet.  The neat thing is that this is not a rigged figure, but a solid mesh.  They are using a custom solver to somehow discern (via body mass?) how this character should bend.  It's not a totally realistic effect, as the character ends up moving like a rubber figurine, but at least to the eye it looks good, especially with the mo-cap data applied.

This got me thinking that the future really isn't in the figures, but in the rigging itself.  Mesh resolution and rigging are the two areas where the most attention has been paid to commercial figures, and with each new one comes the need to build or buy complementing accessories.

So, my idea is similar to zBrush modeling rigs.  I'm thinking of a kind of default rigged bipedal cage.  It has the proportions of a basic human, and has been rigged down to the hands and feet, perhaps even to the fingers and toes.  What it would do is let you import a figure of your own creation, say from makehuman or zBrush, and then adjust the cage until it fits the imported mesh.  Then the mesh could be bound ot the cage and a new figure would exist, able to share any pose or motion created for the pose rig.  Muscle deformers could be linked to the pose rig and would available for any future figure created.  Of course changing the size and proportion of the pose rig would affect its poses.  (Perhaps a special-case use of IK could try to make sure that hands and feet stay in the same absolute locations, as they are the parts most likely to be in the wrong place when using one figure's poses with another.)  A more advanced solution could perhaps try to make sure parts didn't intersect, say when a pose for a skinny figure is applied to an obese one.  Also, shouldn't it be much easier to transfer facial poses from one figure to another than it currently is?  Why can't I just line up the new figure with the old one and have the software create corresponding morph deltas?  Maybe someday makehuman will be able to let me match the default figure's proportions to an imported mesh, then transfer a pose from the default figure to the imported mesh?  It'd be a start, like conforming in reverse almost.

I'm sure most of this is off topic.  But as I keep coming across threads prediciting the end of Poser, I can't help but think that it's the figure business causing the problem.  There might not be a way to make rigging automatic, but for a basic human figure it shouldn't need to be done from scratch every single time.

I have never really done any figure rigging (outside effects props.. simply for ease of use to end users), but can't rigging be simply done in Poser with a donor figure? I mean, I realize that tweaking would certainly be necessary, but I think you can borrow a skellie from a similar figure as to your own creation (bi-ped, quadraped, etc) and apply it. Maybe I stand to be corrected, but I think it can be done this way. But that's Poser. I don't know if the rigging can then be exported outside Poser for other apps without a 3rd party app. Figure/character rigging is certainly not my area of expertise ;o)

Quote -

I have never really done any figure rigging (outside effects props.. simply for ease of use to end users), but can't rigging be simply done in Poser with a donor figure? I mean, I realize that tweaking would certainly be necessary, but I think you can borrow a skellie from a similar figure as to your own creation (bi-ped, quadraped, etc) and apply it. Maybe I stand to be corrected, but I think it can be done this way. But that's Poser. I don't know if the rigging can then be exported outside Poser for other apps without a 3rd party app. Figure/character rigging is certainly not my area of expertise ;o)

You can borrow the skeleton to save the time of naming and placing the bones, but you will still have to deal with the grouping of the mesh and then setting up the joint parameters to deal with differences in propotion etc.  And when you are done you still have a figure with all of the limitations of Poser.  But, you are right that it can be done.  Maybe they should improve set-up then, by making it easier to adapt the skeleton to different meshes, and then later they could add deformers and what not to the rig itself...

And it only works for parts of the figure controlled by bones, meaning faces and such still need to be set-up from scratch.

Quote - As some have pointed out I think people use Poser mostly because of content rather than for the program itself. I myself never do any render in Poser, I use it for content and to do the posing, then export everything to my program of choice, Vue. I suspect many people do that with all kind of other 3D programs. I'm not sure exactly what your aim is with FAST, but it needs to be clear. Are you hoping to replace poser as a content and posing program, if so will it support all the legacy content? Will it use its own new content type? Are you working on building a full featured rendering engine for it, and if so will it support all the bells and whistles like Global Illumination, Radiosity, etc? Personally I predict that if Poser does go away, the big benefactors will be the other 3D programs as people move on to those, and most people will still use Poser or move to D|S simply for the content / posing elements, but I wish you luck as there is room for a brand new, high performance and fully featured 3D posing and animation software.

FAST is being coded to handle all legacy content, Poser and Daz Studio both provided I can work out all the details on the file formats.  FAST will have it's own content type as well, because FAST will support features that neither Poser nor Daz studio currently offer, such as multiple indepedent bone structures, which will require a new file format that neither Poser nor Daz studio would be able to read (at least not at the current time).  However you will be able to integrate Poser and DS content seamlessly if I do my job right :)

I do hope to support all the bells and whistles you mentioned, and hopefully more - my work list is pretty long at the moment and I'm adding more daily.  But like you I think there is room for a new entry in the 3d realm, one that will run on either Linux or Windows and give support to all of the content Poser currently provides.

Quote -
 FAST will have it's own content type as well, because FAST will support features that neither Poser nor Daz studio currently offer, such as multiple indepedent bone structures, which will require a new file format that neither Poser nor Daz studio would be able to read (at least not at the current time).  However you will be able to integrate Poser and DS content seamlessly if I do my job right :)

Just curious what you mean by new file format. Will it be binary or script-like (like Poser). If it is script, Poser ignores anything in the file it doesn't understand. For example, I can produce my props in Poser 4, then do Poser 7 specific tweaks in the P7 material room... then simply move the P7 shaders to the P4 file .. now the file is compatible to both P4 and P7. P4 doesn't understand the shaders and, thus, ignores them.

Of course, it will depend on how large any script type file would be since we know that binary doesn't have to be interpreted and, therefore, is much faster. What I would have liked to seen in Poser is a compiler. That would be a content developers dream come true. You'd be able to still do all your edits by hand but compile the final file for actual use in Poser by the end user.

Interesting...

Personally, I think SM just bought Poser so they could spam me for their other programs which aren't even 3D related.

PapaBlueMarlin, you may not even be to far from the truth with your statement.

Quote - Just curious what you mean by new file format. Will it be binary or script-like (like Poser). If it is script, Poser ignores anything in the file it doesn't understand. For example, I can produce my props in Poser 4, then do Poser 7 specific tweaks in the P7 material room... then simply move the P7 shaders to the P4 file .. now the file is compatible to both P4 and P7. P4 doesn't understand the shaders and, thus, ignores them.

Of course, it will depend on how large any script type file would be since we know that binary doesn't have to be interpreted and, therefore, is much faster. What I would have liked to seen in Poser is a compiler. That would be a content developers dream come true. You'd be able to still do all your edits by hand but compile the final file for actual use in Poser by the end user.

 
Actually the format I have in mind will be based on the Collada standard, it will be a slightly modified version of Collada - however FAST will have the ability to save (and even package) in poser format as well, it's just that Poser will not allow you to use some of the more advanced abilities I have in mind for FAST.

For example, one of the features I'd like FAST to be able to have is applying subdivision modeling to a mesh on the fly - so you can use much lower poly meshes and still have them look like they are much higher poly models.  In the FAST file format, a flag can be set to indicate whether or not this particular mesh should have sub-d applied, and if so how many iterations, etc, so you can animate with low poly meshes and have much higher poly output when it comes time to render.

Posers file format was never designed with this in mind, so if you want to export this to Poser, Fast will first have to apply the sub-d to the mesh, create a new object file, and then generate CR2 or PP2 that points to the new object.  I plan on giving FAST this capability, however FAST is reallly meant as a Poser replacement.

So while it will package Poser content for you, it's not really designed from the ground up with this function in mind, it's more of a bonus really.  My goal is to give people an open source program that can do everything Poser can do and more, one that will run on either Linux or Windows and possibly even Mac OSX.

So while FAST will be able to read and even write Poser content, it will not use Posers file formats as it's native format.  Instead it will use the xml format designed for Collada, probably with a few extensions for some of it's special features.

I could give some thought to a "compiler" as you describe for FAST, though I'm not a content developer myself so I'd be curious to know what sort of benefits you'd be looking for from such a compiler,

Quote - Here's a first installment on that animation wishlist.... ;).

 
Ok, some items that already appeared on my worklist and a lot of good ideas that hadn't made it onto the list yet :)

I'll see what I can do, still got a lot of basic groundwork to laydown but I'll do what I can to implement most (if not eventually all) of the items on your list.

Quote - There's another thread going on currently about the future of  "content" figures.  It's largely a discussion of advantanced and klugey rigging techniques and how long it will be feasible to support both the Daz and Poser markets with the same characters.

Well, for now I plan to code fast to support both markets since they represent a pretty significant portion of the available 3d content out there that is reasonably priced.

However I'm hoping that eventually FAST will begin to get an content market of it's own, one in which content creators can take advantage of some of the more advanced features to create content specifically for FAST.

Only time will tell I suppose, we'll have to see how things go and take it from there.

Quote - > Quote - Here's a first installment on that animation wishlist.... ;).

 
Ok, some items that already appeared on my worklist and a lot of good ideas that hadn't made it onto the list yet :)

I'll see what I can do, still got a lot of basic groundwork to laydown but I'll do what I can to implement most (if not eventually all) of the items on your list.

:D Oh, one that slipped off the list: full interface customization from the OS resources. Being able to change the full color scheme and text fonts would be a godsend for all, and the inclusion of a user set toggled magnification feature for the text would really help those with vision issues(turn it on, set a percentage magnification, and have a hot spot in the field. The mouse passes over the hotspot, and the text pane upsizes by the preset value). -Space Navigator support, if possible. That is one of the handiest little toys to come along.

Anything new with FAST?

I guess it dissappeared as fast as it appeared.

Quote - I guess it dissappeared as fast as it appeared.

Apparently they are only part way done with it.
Right now they have a half-FAST version.   :)

Good one! :biggrin:

This thread's demise.. are we working towards ...?...