Trying to teach myself this skill and it's pretty tough, there are few clear guidelines that I can find. I don't want to just copy someone else's mesh, I'm trying to learn the right concepts in the first place, with good rules that work in most situations.

Given that:

• I am modeling in all quads (more predictable subdivision, easier UVmapping, safest export/import)
• I want to end up with a fairly low poly base control cage
• I am working with Catmull-Clark subdivision and am familiar with how it behaves
• I am working with symmetry
• I accept that a model built on edge loops wherever there is a major muscle mass or fleshy bit that will show on the surface of the model during animation will lead to better subdivision and deformation when animating

Does anyone have information on character topology with these caveats?

Some things nobody taught me, but seem to be true:

• A pole on the border area of a muscle loop can lead to a bump or pit; this is OK where two border areas come together into a corner (e.g. quadricep and bicep) but can be troublesome in "straightaways"
• Having more than one pole (whether 3 edges or 5+ edges) sharing an edge seems like a very bad idea, except in certain places like the rib cage where you want the mesh to be especially bumpy
• (on that note) Adding a loop of edges between a pair of adjacent poles produces safer deformation and subdivision

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... seems a whole lot of people have no problem with poles being adjacent to each other, so maybe I shouldn't worry about that.

Found a very thorough discussion of edge loop theory:
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=93651

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I'm not sure what you mean by a 'pole' on the edges. Could you provide a screenshot? When working with a cage, if there is dimpling, stretch marks or bumps, spinning adjacent quads might be enough to solve the problem. The only trouble is that this might disrupt the straightness of the joint loops, but I suspect that weight mapping would allow for a good bend anyway--unless you’re modeling for Poser.

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I've gotten over that theory I had about having multiple adjacent poles, it seems to be a very common practice.  I am trying to get my head around exactly what to expect when you use spin edge (as my modeler implements it) - seems a lot like a puzzle game, you can shift a triangle around or move poles or whatever, in addition to adjusting poly flow.  I am getting to the point where I can look at geometry and see edge loops, that is helping.  I guess you just need to bang on it and do it a while before it starts to internalize.  I am still looking for example meshes that are considered good topology though (this excludes any Poser figure models obviously).

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This might help http://www.lightwiki.com/Fundamentals_of_Subpatch_Modeling

That's a good example for head topology, thanks.  I'm also looking for body topology though.

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Here's an example of what I mean, torso topology that I am trying right now.  Still in the very experimental phase, I know it has a lot of problems already.  Some of the key edgeloops I think are necessary for the torso are highlighted (abdominal muscles, ribcage, pectoral)

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I think this is going somewhere but I have trouble with the two poles in particular, trying to get a clean loop of polygons around the hip and it's pretty tough. Probably ought to just delete the leg points and start the leg over.

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Your basic form is really good. I think the problem in the thigh area could be aleviated if you added more complexity to the cage. This would allow you to drag more points and round things out. In Modo you could add complexty to a cage in the area you wish by beveling or by using the knife tool. There are some problems with both approaches. Beveling will distort your shape and it will need to be reworked. The knife may create ngons that you'll need to split manually (unless you plan to freeze the model.) The best example of an ultra-efficient topology in the subpatch form that I've ever seen is patorak's 'Plain Jane.' He posted some useful images (including side and front views of the cage) that are now deep in this thread. My stuff is chaos by comparison, but I suspect I can make it work anyway.

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This might be some help. It looks like you have a great start there . I wouldnt get too extreme about the topology , just try to keep it clean where it matters most .

There is a book of polygon patterns and how to use spinquad to fix them but somet8imes the flaw propogates around the model :( 

In lightwave stars are sometimes good places to collapse the polys and manually split them up to fix the loops .

Heres another tutorial thing.. www.3dlinks.com/oldsite/tutorials/GENERAL/chapter6_8.cfm

I cant see much of it on my dialup link so I hope it helps .

I forgot to add, another way to add complexity to a cage is by adding edge loops, either by sliding/duplicating, or by the knife.

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Thanks for the info.  I'm really thinking of something more like this:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=47743&highlight=topology

Although shape wise there's an obvious similarity to Jessi's worst features (funky egg head, hawk nose) the mesh follows the body anatomy a whole lot better than most topologies I've looked at.  That 3dlinks tut is pretty good, but I don't think I like the way the polys are laid out around the shoulder and hip, I'm sure it can be done better (e.g. that Zbrush thread above).  I really don't want to try to reverse engineer anybody else's commercial Poser model either (Patorak etc) for various reasons.

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Getting somewhere, I think.  Time for some sleep though.

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Shoulder topo is beating the crap out of me.  I keep feeling like I'm almost getting it and then I realize I'm kind of going in circles.  I've cut the arm off about ten times now.  :(

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In my experience, try and try again is the nature of modeling (not to mention rigging in Poser.) It's good to have some artistic anatomy reference books to comprehend the shapes of muscle groups. Also, I found Peter Ratner's '3-D Human Modeling and Animation' book to be useful.

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Yeah I have looked over a very good set of tutorials by Ratner:
http://www.free3dtutorials.com/modeling/maya/modeling-a-female-torso-tutorial.php
http://www.free3dtutorials.com/modeling/maya/modeling-the-female-arm-tutorial.php?page=1
http://www.free3dtutorials.com/modeling/maya/modeling-a-female-head-tutorial.php

He's also got a couple of male figure tuts there as well but I can't locate them (might not be under the Maya tuts, I dunno).  Unfortunately these are a lot more procedural "do exactly this, and you will end up with this finished mesh" - is there discussion of theory in the book and practical applications, not so much a micromanaged and very direct procedure?

I should point out, if I rig this model in Poser it will be a long way off, I am really a lot more interested in rigging her in Cinema (tons more power and rigging tools aren't so ancient).

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The book covers a lot of ground with quite a bit of theory and explanations. I've mainly concentrated on the human modeling section. It’s not a rigid, step-by-step approach, but I found it helpful in establishing some of the basic forms. Still, you’ll want other references. My model’s topology ended up being very different from the examples in the book.

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Thanks, maybe I'll get a copy of the book.

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This is really difficult!  I think I have a shoulder arrangement I like, and the hip and beginning of the thigh musculature.  I found that you absolutely must have a clean line of edges with no poles along the spine or it's just not going to subdivide and render cleanly.  How does this look?  The proportions of the model have been adjusted a whole lot to match my reference closer (yes, my reference has a perfect body).

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side..

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rear... needs some detail for a shoulder blade eventually but this is pretty clean I think, would like some feedback.

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The topology looks very nice and clean with a good flow of edgeloops! You have a good basis for adding additional details when needed. I can highly recommend the huge thread Topology Research at CGTalk. There are some 600 postings in that thread but it's a must for anyone interested in human topology.

/Anders

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Thanks Anders, I will dig around in that thread some more and see what I can pull out.  The initial talk of n-gons kind of scared me away ;)  Appreciate your feedback.

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Back topology... I think the shoulder blade shape is OK, would like some feedback.  I went to a much simpler back topo and I think I'm going to leave it like this and move on to arms and legs.  I could do this with a lot fewer polys but I don't think that would work all that well for animation.

I managed to get a nice clean loop going all the way around the whole rib cage, which I think will make a "breathe in" animation very practical (select inside the loop and scale).  We'll see I guess when I get to that point.

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There is no one way to do topology for your figure.  Especially if you're using only quads where you can't cheat.  Good model so far.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

The thing that makes the shoulder blades tricky is that they seem to change shape depending on the movements of the arms. If you're going for realism, high-end programs would likely have a solution for this. In Poser, I'd compromise and forget about it since there are much bigger problems to attend to. The body shape is looking good. You appear to have talent.

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Thanks Shonner, Paloth!

I don't have immediate plans to bring this model into Poser, I think it would be a huge exercise in pain for very questionable return.  Cinema 4D R10.5 + MOCCA will be the toolset I'm using, it's got all the bells and whistles.

The thigh and shin are giving me a tough time.  While I can get the shape easy enough of whatever I want, finding a good geometry to match, say, attached pic is EXTREMELY hard.  My edge looping down the leg is kind of nutty.  I don't want to show the current state :/  Maybe tomorrow I'll get it lined up better.

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I've reached the conclusion that poles (3-edge or 5-edge) on any smooth curvy surface, like the buttock, are just a terrible area.  They will never be smooth.  At the hip line it isn't a big deal, because that's a bumpy, dimply area, but on the buttock it just does not work.  I had already mostly realized this along the spine and in some clothing modeling work in the past but it was a real pain to find a solution down the leg.  There are still a couple of poles around there but they're in the gravity fold and near a muscle crease so I don't think this will bug me any more.

Anyway, poles - never on smooth curvy surfaces!

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and so.

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I try to place poles only on hard surfaces over bone where skin will not experience any stretching or twisting.

Or tucked away in creases the camera will never visit.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Look, feet!

Surprisingly the feet were not that hard, obviously some detail needs to be done for some toenails but that can wait.  Note I am not modeling them into a high-heel-shoe-ready pose :)

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I think it looks excellent. Good job so far! Can't wait to see how she progresses.

 looks great to my little untrained eye.
Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Thanks :) here are some fresher pics of the topo, overall it's getting greatly simplified.  Armpit is still kicking my butt though.

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back side.

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Looks good!   My advice...rig it and start your breathe,  breasts,  glutes,  thighs,  shin and feet morphs.  Your app will update them in realtime as you add detail.  Also,  uv map it.

Thanks, I had planned to rig and UVmap.  I don't see any point in proceeding with either until the geometry is nailed down though.

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It's easier in the early stages...less polys to deal with.  Rigging it now will aid in developing the poly flow.  Keep the morphs relative though and C4d should be able to update as you go.

Don't worry about the poles pinching either.  Texture and surfacing will hide 'em.  Specially if you use weight maps to surface.

Huh, I appreciate the advice but I won't be doing it that way at all.  Far too many changes to the geometry going on right now, I'd be correcting the UVmap and rig every 30 minutes.

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Thought you may want to see this - an alternative mesh flow also great for animation:

http://gnomonology.com/tutorial/287

Only two images of the wires, sadly, but the whole mesh is like that  (non-defined via cuts but still having definition).

Crud, for some reason I am not able to open the Gnomonology page.  Nothing wrong with your link, I can't even go directly to www.gnomonology.com, IE 6 won't open it.

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 opened fine for me in safari - perhaps the server was down??
love es

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

I'll be picking it up on Monday, so I'll post a wire shot for you to see. It's a bit late in the game for the character you're working on right now but something to consider for the future maybe.

Seems to be some compatibility problem between Windows XP 64, IE 6 and that site.  Bummer.  Well, I'm interested to see what the wires look like when you do get a chance.

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*Huh, I appreciate the advice but I won't be doing it that way at all.  Far too many changes to the geometry going on right now, I'd be correcting the UVmap and rig every 30 minutes.

Hmm...What problems are you having with the mesh?  See,  your mesh should be established at the 400 to 1000 poly stage and readied for edgelooping.  That includes hands and head. 

Arm pit topology specifically.

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Have you tried 3 edgeloops;  lats,  bicep,  and tricep?

As promised:

This is an animation ready model from a guy who works at DreamWorks. As I said, a possible alternative in the future.

Thanks Teyon, I appreciate that.  I don't think I'd ever do it this way though, all those verys would be a huge pain to work with and weight.

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Well, that's the subdivided mesh roughly 50,000 quad polys - about the same as an average Poser model. I'm sure if you were to create a lower res mesh that would lead to a similar flow it would ease up the pain of weight mapping.  Still, it's just something I thought you'd find interesting.  Happy to be of service and looking forward to the final!

*I'm sure if you were to create a lower res mesh that would lead to a similar flow it would ease up the pain of weight mapping.

Yeah!  Just amp up the subdivisions,  and bake a normal map. 

You know some riggers don't even use weight maps.  Would you like to see an example?

It wouldn't be helpful in this case, thanks though...

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You're welcome.  Yeah...normal maps are mostly used in video games anyways.  Baking a displacement map would probably be better.

BTW Here's an example of a weight map free rig.

Patorak, thanks, but that is really of no help to me here.  Appreciate it anyway.

I think I have the topo I was looking for.

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back ... latissimus goes under the tricep, yay.

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Looks good.  Might want to even out those polys.

Not sure when the last post to this was, but I'm hoping the original poster can get back on this.  I was wondering what app was being used for the the modeling I really liked the display mode that showed the major wire cage in one color, but then the propsed tesselation wire undernaeth. I really liked that to be able to see how dense your mesh would actually be at rendertime.  I've worked in almost every modeling app, but haven't seen that.

I believe that's Cinema 4D's modeler. 

Hello everyone. I landed here looking for the same advice as pjz99, and I have believe an updated follow up could be nice. I will upload a series of steps on my attempt to re-topo a very high poly model that a friend modeled on ZBrush (1.2 GB) to later find that he did not created this model with my client's true body proportions... so, I will create a model detailed enough to be able to transform it into the right proportions and then rig it to be posable.

Yes, Teyon, that is Cinema4D, the software I will be working on.

Let me know if anyone is interested, so I will produce the images for this thread.

DavidRojoH posted at 10:10 PM Mon, 15 August 2022 - #4442805

Hello everyone. I landed here looking for the same advice as pjz99, and I have believe an updated follow up could be nice. I will upload a series of steps on my attempt to re-topo a very high poly model that a friend modeled on ZBrush (1.2 GB) to later find that he did not created this model with my client's true body proportions... so, I will create a model detailed enough to be able to transform it into the right proportions and then rig it to be posable.

Yes, Teyon, that is Cinema4D, the software I will be working on.

Let me know if anyone is interested, so I will produce the images for this thread.

Oh yes, I am definitely interested, please do a follow up.